Comments on: Did Albrecht Duerer get it wrong? A surprise discovery in one of his prints. http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/ new technologies and their effect on the making and teaching of art, craft and design Tue, 27 Oct 2009 01:04:55 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: I wish I had known about this site earlier. The “Rare Book Room”. « virtualterritory http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-674 I wish I had known about this site earlier. The “Rare Book Room”. « virtualterritory Sat, 18 Oct 2008 07:40:50 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-674 [...] blogs about the ‘Lute’ print are: ‘Did Albrecht Dürer get it wrong, a surprise discovery in one of his prints’ ‘Ist Albrecht Dürer ein Fehler unterlaufen eine überraschende Entdeckung in seinem [...] [...] blogs about the ‘Lute’ print are: ‘Did Albrecht Dürer get it wrong, a surprise discovery in one of his prints’ ‘Ist Albrecht Dürer ein Fehler unterlaufen eine überraschende Entdeckung in seinem [...]

]]> By: A page out of Dürer’s own copy of the Painters Manual « virtualterritory http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-659 A page out of Dürer’s own copy of the Painters Manual « virtualterritory Fri, 03 Oct 2008 02:00:47 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-659 [...] perspective’ I visited several print-rooms in Europe in April this year. (see earlier blogs: ‘Blog 1 English version’ , ‘Blog 1 Deutsche Version’ , Blog 2 ) Using funds from the Carrick Award, I saw [...] [...] perspective’ I visited several print-rooms in Europe in April this year. (see earlier blogs: ‘Blog 1 English version’ , ‘Blog 1 Deutsche Version’ , Blog 2 ) Using funds from the Carrick Award, I saw [...]

]]> By: virtualterritory http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-99 virtualterritory Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:24:22 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-99 Dear Ben, Thank you for your comments. I am very certain that Albrecht Duerer used his command over drawing and the understanding of perspective at his time as well as some ‘artistic license’ to show the principle rather then a true representation of the picture plane. As I teach this course to university students, the age group is rather wide from their early twenties to mature age students. Over about ten 5hr sessions I try to build up the skills and understanding with the student group to master the construction of properly developed two-point perspective drawings. Starting form orthographic to axonometric projection together with building models of the drawn objects we then explore other elements of the perspective drawing like the cone-of-vision and the picture plane and then put them all together. The laser exercise is to demonstrate the relation of the distance of the picture plane to the view or eye-point as described above. This experiment is setup in minutes, I have two frames for clamping on A3 overhead transparencies (the picture planes) and a little slide-show pointing laser that is mounted to a camera tripod with a swivel head (the eye point). Once all elements are aligned and positioned, the frames and the tripod are weight down by street pavers (the high tech element). Students like this ‘interactive’ session as it engages the new – the laser – to illustrate a very old principle. A colleague of mine uses the ‘Duerer scope’ in her class as well. The point pattern as a result of tracing an object with the laser behind the picture plane is not a one or two point perspective rather it shows a true perspective as our eyes would perceive it. Akin to the film plane in an old fashioned camera however it would show increasing distortion towards the outer edges of the picture plane. This distortions would increase with the size of the picture plane. The ideal picture plane would be spherical guaranteeing an equal distance from the eye point like the retina behind the lenses in our eyes. I hope these lines answer your questions. Dear Ben,

Thank you for your comments. I am very certain that Albrecht Duerer used his command over drawing and the understanding of perspective at his time as well as some ‘artistic license’ to show the principle rather then a true representation of the picture plane.
As I teach this course to university students, the age group is rather wide from their early twenties to mature age students. Over about ten 5hr sessions I try to build up the skills and understanding with the student group to master the construction of properly developed two-point perspective drawings.
Starting form orthographic to axonometric projection together with building models of the drawn objects we then explore other elements of the perspective drawing like the cone-of-vision and the picture plane and then put them all together. The laser exercise is to demonstrate the relation of the distance of the picture plane to the view or eye-point as described above.
This experiment is setup in minutes, I have two frames for clamping on A3 overhead transparencies (the picture planes) and a little slide-show pointing laser that is mounted to a camera tripod with a swivel head (the eye point). Once all elements are aligned and positioned, the frames and the tripod are weight down by street pavers (the high tech element).
Students like this ‘interactive’ session as it engages the new – the laser – to illustrate a very old principle. A colleague of mine uses the ‘Duerer scope’ in her class as well.

The point pattern as a result of tracing an object with the laser behind the picture plane is not a one or two point perspective rather it shows a true perspective as our eyes would perceive it. Akin to the film plane in an old fashioned camera however it would show increasing distortion towards the outer edges of the picture plane. This distortions would increase with the size of the picture plane. The ideal picture plane would be spherical guaranteeing an equal distance from the eye point like the retina behind the lenses in our eyes.

I hope these lines answer your questions.

]]> By: Ben http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-87 Ben Tue, 21 Aug 2007 00:32:58 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-87 Very interesting article, a topic that could spark debate or discussion in the classroom.. It seems Dürer has chosen to use his "artistic licenses" and alter the image to better teach than to be exact, as he shows in many of his works. Reading the article I also find your approach to teaching perspective very interesting. I have been teaching perspective to high school and was looking to teach it in a different light, by focusing on the science point of view more than the artistic view. I was curious on the age group you were working with when you set up the experiment, the amount of time it took, and success of the lesson. This lesson experiment would be great for one point if you give me any leads for two point or three point experiment that would be wonderful. Thank you for the inspiration and any help you can give. Ben Kessler Very interesting article, a topic that could spark debate or discussion in the classroom.. It seems Dürer has chosen to use his “artistic licenses” and alter the image to better teach than to be exact, as he shows in many of his works. Reading the article I also find your approach to teaching perspective very interesting. I have been teaching perspective to high school and was looking to teach it in a different light, by focusing on the science point of view more than the artistic view. I was curious on the age group you were working with when you set up the experiment, the amount of time it took, and success of the lesson. This lesson experiment would be great for one point if you give me any leads for two point or three point experiment that would be wonderful.

Thank you for the inspiration and any help you can give.

Ben Kessler

]]> By: Further to Albrecht Dürer’s 1525 woodcut ‘Man drawing a Lute’ (The Draughtsman of the Lute) « virtualterritory http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-27 Further to Albrecht Dürer’s 1525 woodcut ‘Man drawing a Lute’ (The Draughtsman of the Lute) « virtualterritory Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:29:24 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-27 [...] into the perspective relationship between the picture elements of this print (see earlier posts in English and in Deutsch) I noticed several ‘abnormalities’ in reproductions of this so well known work [...] [...] into the perspective relationship between the picture elements of this print (see earlier posts in English and in Deutsch) I noticed several ‘abnormalities’ in reproductions of this so well known work [...]

]]> By: virtualterritory http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-23 virtualterritory Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:02:50 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-23 Thank you Jenny, I followed the links and look forward to have a read once I will get it. Gilbert Thank you Jenny, I followed the links and look forward to have a read once I will get it.
Gilbert

]]> By: Jenny http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-21 Jenny Tue, 19 Jun 2007 02:30:33 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-21 Gilbert -- Here are two links to the book, the information about Durer was in the first or second lecture. http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8234.html http://www.amazon.com/Pictures-Nothing-Abstract-W-Lectures/dp/069112678X Jenny Gilbert –

Here are two links to the book, the information about Durer was in the first or second lecture.

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8234.html

http://www.amazon.com/Pictures-Nothing-Abstract-W-Lectures/dp/069112678X

Jenny

]]> By: virtualterritory http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-20 virtualterritory Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:53:42 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-20 Dear Jenny, thank you for your lines, some times there are certain things just 'in the air', like thinking of someone and then suddenly running into them. could you please point me to the link to the text about Durer you mention in your comment. Best, Gilbert Dear Jenny,

thank you for your lines, some times there are certain things just ‘in the air’, like thinking of someone and then suddenly running into them.

could you please point me to the link to the text about Durer you mention in your comment.

Best, Gilbert

]]> By: Jenny http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-19 Jenny Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:20:44 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-19 I came to your web site from SharonB's blog and find it interesting that this is the second article on Durer that I have read this morning -- this one an analysis of his art work and experiment in perspective, the other an essay on how we see and esperience art in Pictures of Nothing by Kirk Varnedoe. It is interesting how picking up random books off of the library new book shelf and wandering around the web following interesting links both brought me to different discussions of the same engraving. Jenny I came to your web site from SharonB’s blog and find it interesting that this is the second article on Durer that I have read this morning — this one an analysis of his art work and experiment in perspective, the other an essay on how we see and esperience art in Pictures of Nothing by Kirk Varnedoe. It is interesting how picking up random books off of the library new book shelf and wandering around the web following interesting links both brought me to different discussions of the same engraving.

Jenny

]]> By: Jerry http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-18 Jerry Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:42:34 +0000 http://virtualterritory.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/did-albrecht-duerer-got-it-wrong-a-surprise-discovery-in-one-of-his-prints/#comment-18 Hi Gilbert Thank you for the clarification. I agree that if you move the frame forward - as you suggest Durer may have intended - then indeed the image lines up really only with the one line that Durer himself put in, although most of the rest of the body also would be a close if not a precise fit. My problem is with the peg-box of the instrument - and the fact that that portion of the instrument would need to be scaled down to fit the current frame. Yes if you move the frame forward the whole putative drawing would need to be scaled down as the lines of convergence would be closer together - assuming the eye-line did not change in the process. I shall email separately a photo of the image I used showing the lines I put in to determine the scale of the lute's peg-box between the 'real' and the putative drawing. Thank you again for a stimulating discussion - I had not previously considered that Durer would have deliberately distorted the drawing for pedagogical purposes. That is an excellent observation on your part. Best regards Jerry Hi Gilbert
Thank you for the clarification. I agree that if you move the frame forward – as you suggest Durer may have intended – then indeed the image lines up really only with the one line that Durer himself put in, although most of the rest of the body also would be a close if not a precise fit. My problem is with the peg-box of the instrument – and the fact that that portion of the instrument would need to be scaled down to fit the current frame. Yes if you move the frame forward the whole putative drawing would need to be scaled down as the lines of convergence would be closer together – assuming the eye-line did not change in the process. I shall email separately a photo of the image I used showing the lines I put in to determine the scale of the lute’s peg-box between the ‘real’ and the putative drawing.

Thank you again for a stimulating discussion – I had not previously considered that Durer would have deliberately distorted the drawing for pedagogical purposes. That is an excellent observation on your part.

Best regards
Jerry

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